Chuck Wexler Speaks with Former New Orleans Police Superintendent and Baltimore Police Commissioner Michael Harrison

In this episode of PERFcast, PERF Executive Director Chuck Wexler speaks with former Baltimore Police Commissioner Michael Harrison. Harrison discusses his early days in the New Orleans Police Department leading up to his appointment as superintendent of police, the challenges of overseeing departments under consent decrees in New Orleans and Baltimore, and the leadership skills that he looks for in police executives. 

Thanks for listening to PERFcast, the official podcast of the Police Executive Research Forum. For more information on PERF, visit www.policeforum.org.

Transcript

Dustin Waters: 0:03

Welcome to PERFcast the official podcast of the Police Executive Research Forum. In this episode of PERFcast, PERF Executive Director Chuck Wexler speaks with former Baltimore Police Commissioner Michael Harrison. Harrison discusses his early days in the New Orleans Police Department leading up to his appointment as Superintendent of Police, the challenges of overseeing departments under consent decrees in two major American cities and the leadership skills that he looks for and police executives. Here's that conversation.

Chuck Wexler: 0:37

You grew up in New Orleans. Did you always want to be a police officer?

Michael Harrison: 0:42

I don't know that I always wanted to be a police officer. But somewhere after 18, after high school, I was in the National Guard there. And on the weekends, when I would get together with a number of friends of mine who were on the National Guard, I found a number of police officers from New Orleans and from the surrounding areas, who are also members of the National Guard. And I think I had began to be interested around that time.

Chuck Wexler: 1:13

My understanding is you joined the New Orleans Police Department in 1991. What was it? What was the New Orleans Police Department? What did it look like to you in 1991, as a police officer?

Unknown: 1:27

Well, and I was 21 years old, and I joined in 1991, started the Academy, I believe, in October and went through the holiday season. I did not know about the rumors of corruption and the actual corruption and what you know what people would say negatively about the New Orleans Police Department. I remember meeting a recruiter and talking to other friends of mine who were members of the department who were also, like I said, in my National Guard unit, and, you know, looking at their experience, I became interested. And so it it was a continuation of this military structure, very formal discipline, lifestyle that I think I needed that I wanted, that was helping me. And I've always been a member of some type of organization that had strong discipline. And the National Guard was a continuation of that after high school, the police department was a continuation of that. So it gave me structure. It gave me a paramilitary lifestyle that seemed to fit me.

Chuck Wexler: 2:51

So there would be one day, one particular evening, I think, when you would be in an establishment where you actually saw corruption firsthand. Can you talk about that?

Michael Harrison: 3:08

Yeah, I fast forward from my joining the police department to when I, you know, work through the proactive units and work my way to a narcotics unit about four years into it. I was working in the major case and mechanics unit had the benefit of a lot of training and undercover training. So I was doing some undercover work. And I remember being in a in a club, nightclub or bar, and seeing the person I was supposed to have this encounter with talking to other police officers that I recognize, and who recognized me and was telling the drug dealer who I'm there to meet that I'm a police officer. And you know, that was very eye opening to me that members of my department were not just involved in wrongdoing, but would actually go to great lengths to point me out. And I would imagine point others out as police officers in my mind, not just jeopardizing the investigation, I was working but was jeopardizing my life and my livelihood.

Chuck Wexler: 4:20

And at that moment, you had to make a career decision, didn't you? I mean, it was that was like it was a turning point in your life, wasn't it?

Michael Harrison: 4:30

That was a turning point in my life because I began to quickly realize that there were people within our organization who were not true to the calling of policing and not true to the oath that they took that I took. And in I had to make a decision was I going to continue to do the work and an honest way to to read the city of his drug dealers, which is what I thought I was stalling, and people who are preying on innocent vulnerable people for their own success, and I thought I was doing the right thing. But to learn that there were officers who were working against me who were supposed to be on the same team, it really made me have to make a decision on where I was going to be and how I was going to handle that. And since they had no regard for my well being, I had to make a decision that, you know, I was going to see it through, I'm going to continue doing this work. And if any of them interfered or gotten away, then they had no right to wear the badge. And I will do whatever it takes to show that this is the way I was doing, it was the right way to police. And what they were doing was wrong. That was the decision that I made. Because if I were to continue doing that work, it was gonna happen again.

Chuck Wexler: 5:56

So you basically, you know, had to make career decision, and you went undercover. And through your work that really resulted in uncovering some significant corruption, correct?

Michael Harrison: 6:09

Correct. And so I later not not that case, but I later because of the environment we were working in, because we had officers who were in the department who were working for the drug dealers, and on their payrolls. I was in narcotics, and later advanced to work, a case with the FBI. So I'm now working for the FBI. And one of the individuals in the organization that we were trying to take down, he and I knew each other. And he approached me and wanted to bribe me to give him information. And so I told my supervisor, who was a lieutenant, we told the FBI agent, and the three of us were the only ones that knew, other than other members of the FBI. But we were the only two in the police department that knew. And so I went undercover, to pretend to be a corrupt police officer to win his trust. So that we could infiltrate this drug organization, which had police officers on his payroll. And it was almost impossible for us to catch the main drug dealer, because he didn't use a phone. He didn't use a pager. And He only spoke to certain individuals. The only way to catch it was to catch the officers who are on his payroll. And so I went undercover as a corrupt police officer in a federal FBI case, which was headed up by an FBI special agent. And we not only caught the person who was trying to bribe me, but we caught the main, the biggest purchaser of drugs from the main drug dealer in the whole south part of the country. And inevitably, we took down the drug organization, but it was a big part of it was through this investigation as a corrupt undercover as a corrupt police officer, which was in my, in my view, at that time was the pinnacle of my investigative detective career. And not shortly shortly after that I got promoted to sergeant.

Chuck Wexler: 8:09

Must have been some heady days. I can only imagine the challenges of working in a department like that. You would, you would be noticed, and you would get promoted and promoted. And finally you would wind up I believe in internal affairs, and then you would be put in as commander, this part of New Orleans, which was sort of cut off from the rest of New Orleans, wasn't it?

Michael Harrison: 8:36

Well, yes, I, after some time in the field as a noodle sergeant, I then got recruited to go back to internal affairs, which was termed the Public Integrity bureau. As a sergeant and it I was recruited by a captain who was close to the superintendent in the superintendent remembered the work that I had done. And I was recruited to go to internal affairs to help continue to clean the department up and rid the Department of people who do not deserve to wear a badge and represent the agency. So I spent a number of years there from a sergeant Lieutenant Commander, and that was actually over a secret unit called the special investigative section, which was a proactive unit within the public integrity Bureau, which then, of course, sting operations. Surveillance, undercover operations against all of which was against police officers, you know, wiretap investigations. We actually had two FBI agents assigned to that unit. And so that unit reported directly to the head of the Public Integrity Bureau who reported directly to the superintendent. And so all in all, I spent a little over nine years at three different ranks in the Public Integrity Bureau, most of which was handling investigations. overt investigations against other police officers, many of which were sting operations, or what we would call integrity tests. And from there that promoted, you know, again, went out to a district as an assistant commander got promoted to be a commander of a district. And from there, he became the superintendent in 2014. But a big part a big chunk of my career there was spent doing the work of investigations against officers.

Chuck Wexler: 10:30

Very challenging time. You know, I, that district that you became a commander of, when you look back at that experience versus when you became superintendent in New Orleans Police Commission, police commissioner in Baltimore, that experience as commander of that district was very important, wasn't it?

Michael Harrison: 10:53

It was, because it was the biggest district according to landmass, the biggest district for population, it was separated by water. So it was literally like an island. It was the furthermost point of the city going into the next county or parish, as it's called in Louisiana. And at the time, at the time, the the people did not get to see their council person very often, they did not get to see the police chief very often. And it did not get to see the mayor very often. Because it was so isolated and so far out away from downtown. And I, to the to the residents of that district, I became their police commander, I became their police their, their their city council person, and I became the police chief and the mayor to them. Now, let them not literally. But it was that type of assignment where I grew to earn their confidence in such a way that they you know, they held me in high regard as their district commander, which I believe, got the attention of the mayor, and I believe, set me apart from the other commanders, and really allowed me to run that district as a small department. It had as many as 110 115 officers when I started and three and a half years, three years later, you know, it was down to about 90 because of attrition. But it was as big as some as many departments in the state of Louisiana and I got to run it like its own police department.

Chuck Wexler: 12:30

Do you think do you think looking back on that experience? Would that have been the first time you thought, Wow, this this could be? This is like running my own department that maybe someday I could be superintendent in New Orleans.

Michael Harrison: 12:45

Absolutely, that that is something I began to think about really quickly, especially in that position. I began to think about it before then, but especially in that position. Because I had my own budget, I had my own network of community leaders that I was accountable to, I had my own officers. And it was, you know, the consent decree started in 2013. I was already already the commander of that district. But because it allowed me to run it like its own police department, and I took on the issues of things far beyond policing, once again, because the people did not get to see their council person. Very much. They, they did not get to see the chief or the mayor very much because it was so far out. And it was separated by water that they relied on me to get much of their quality of life. Request fail. And whether it's crime, whether it was quality of life, whether it's housing, whether it was dumping, whether it was the lighting, or potholes in the roadway, it was our job to make it known to the city, that these were things that needed to be fixed in addition to crime, and we were able to do it.

Chuck Wexler: 14:07

So that was a real another defining moment in your career. That position, right?

Michael Harrison: 14:13

That position for over three years was a true defining moment in my career. And I believe because that district had a certain demographic of individuals. It caught the attention of the of the politicians in the city, and it caught the attention of the mayor, who, when looking to decide if he wanted to appoint someone else as the police, police superintendent. Then he was I believe was given information to consider me because of how effective I was in that district.

Chuck Wexler: 14:49

Before we move on, I want to go I want to go back and ask you. What was it like living through Katrina? What was some of the lessons learned, what did you go through? Where were you in your career? Some people listening to this may not know what I'm talking about with Katrina. So kind of give us a little sense of what Katrina did to the city of New Orleans and where were you at that point in your career? And what were the lessons from Katrina?

Michael Harrison: 15:17

Well, Hurricane Katrina hit August 29 of 2005. I was a sergeant in the Public Integrity Bureau. And the the police department in the city at that time, never anticipated or expected. A devastating hurricane Katrina, to hit the city. Katrina is not what destroyed the city. The breaking of the levees, because of Katrina is floodwaters is what destroyed the city. And when multiple levees broke, because the water was so high and intense. It flooded 85% of the city. I was a sergeant in the Public Integrity Bureau, the city was not prepared, and never expected anything like that to happen. And so we were literally in survival mode. And because of relationships, people were able to have places to go and places to stay, I was fortunate to work for a commander who had relationships at the Hilton. So public integrity, worked and slept at the Hilton Hotel, the office was totally destroyed under eight feet of water. But we were fortunate to be at the Hilton when the storm hit. And so when district stations were destroyed, you know, multiple hundreds of police cars destroyed in a day, in one day's time, all communication was cut off. And so we were literally having a meeting in the morning and a meeting in the evening in person to get instructions on what to do and where to go rescue people and how to go about doing that. And meeting in the evening to talk again, because for for better than a week or two, there was absolutely no communication until people like Verizon came in and brought us in the cell phones and created technology for us to use phones because we didn't have that. And so it was very primitive, very chaotic. But there were people there were people who rose to the to leadership levels to make things happen that otherwise would not happen. Without a plan without facilities, vehicles, equipment on standby ready to use. We you know, we were forced to, you know, go rescue missions in boats that had to be brought in by private owners who brought boats.

Chuck Wexler: 17:41

How did you deal with your family? What are your families dealing with this, you got your professional life and you got your family.

Michael Harrison: 17:47

My wife and kids my two kids evacuated about 80 miles away to Baton Rouge, Louisiana, where my mother and her family you know, they all evacuated there. My mother still lives there never came back in New Orleans. And so I was separated from my family as well as most of the people in the police department. Now. We had 1500 police officers. And so when the storm hit more than 450 either did not show or deserve it or came and left and never came back. And so we were short four to 500 officers for weeks, until the city began to stabilize. And then people began to trickle back into the city in the department to find that they either did not have a job anymore. Or if they came back within 14 days they were under severe penalty. Because anything after 14 days was job abandonment, and they were terminated. And so the department suffered a major loss in those early days and weeks of Hurricane Katrina because there were people who left and decided they had to evacuate their family. For whatever reason. Some came back some did not. But only those who came back within the 14 days were allowed to keep their job but the stigma of having left remained with them for many years. And so it was a very chaotic time, and we were also very primitively surviving. For weeks we were in rescue mode because the water was flooded the city for 21 days. Then the water receded for about a week. And then hurricane Island came I believe. Rita came I forget the name of the hurricane that came afterward I believe it was redone and flooded the city again for 21 more days and when that water receded, we began to rebuild. Um, so it was it was a very chaotic time and so much of the city you could not ride around yet to go to invokes and when the water did receive, you can imagine the stench of you know, dead bodies, dead animals, and you know this The destruction of absolutely everything what that looked like what it smelled, smelled like. It was horrific.

Chuck Wexler: 20:07

I mean, like the Lower Ninth Ward was destroyed, right?

Michael Harrison: 20:11

Totally destroy, you know, many parts of the city were totally destroyed under 15 feet of water in New Orleans, just like a bowl in the center of the city. It's like a bowl at the River and Lake at its edges is high ground. So the fridge corner, the tourist area, some of the Uptown area it was on high ground along the river. But as you move away from the river, it sinks out and at some points was 15 feet. And so some areas were under 810 feet, somewhere as many as 15 feet of water. So Katrina really did a job on Wall liens. But it is a resilient city and began to bounce back and come back really quickly.

Chuck Wexler: 20:51

What what are the lessons that every superintendent in New Orleans or other cities should take away from dealing with a catastrophe like that? What are the three or four major things you should think about? When something like that happens.

Michael Harrison: 21:06

Every executive should be prepared, I have a contingency plan to deal with personnel, when personnel should report when personnel should leave. And when personnel should be allowed to go home and have contingency plans to shelter in place and keep personnel at the station and sheltering in station with food with amenities and all that needs to happen for days, if not weeks, if you because New Orleans did not have that. And so a contingency plan for people when they come when they leave, who should come who should leave? How do we rotate schedules? And how do we sustain ourselves during this time, then there there is capital resources like buildings and alternate buildings. And so the police station may be a first place but you should have an alternate should the station lose power should the station flood, then you have to think about transportation. If there's a catastrophe, we may not be able to use police cars, we may have to only be able to use extremely large, heavy military vehicles to get around because the winds may be too high for vehicles. And our flooding may be an issue and you can't use your vehicles. And so how does the agency store up its vehicles so that they're not destroyed because of catastrophic flooding, and a high rise garage that is secure. And then utilizing high water vehicles, that you can drive through water, drive through high wind so that you're not destroying your vehicles. So there's personnel contingency for personnel. There's contingency for facilities and there's contingency for equipment. You know, does everyone have a cot to sleep on? Does everyone have three meals a day? Does everyone have communication? Enough changing clothes and uniforms can reclaim those uniforms if we have to have a sustained period? So I think if you put them in those three buckets every every leader should be thinking about a contingency plan to sustain yourself for a protracted period of days, if not weeks on in those three things, people facilities and equipment.

Chuck Wexler: 23:23

Going back to your career, as you were, you would get a phone call from Mayor Mitch Landrieu. You didn't know him, did you? You really didn't know him, did you?

Michael Harrison: 23:36

I did not know the mayor. I had been in his presence in passing. But I had had not known the mayor, especially not personally and so. But the mayor was known to from time to time, call a district commander and maybe ask a question about a crime or an incident. But that is the extent of, of my knowledge of the mayor just, you know, knowing that he could call me anytime to ask me about something happening in my district.

Chuck Wexler: 24:04

Because just Saturday morning, out of the blue. And you know, you're you're a district commander. So you're like about three or four rungs down in the New Orleans establishment. Right. I mean, if you were not necessarily the heir apparent, were you?

Michael Harrison: 24:21

I was not the heir apparent. There's the superintendent. There were commanders under the deputy chiefs or deputy superintendents, and then there were the rank of commander. And then there was the rank of Major than Captain so I was two levels down. Not an assistant chief or deputy chief.

Chuck Wexler: 24:44

He calls you asked you to come see him.

Michael Harrison: 24:48

He called me and asked me to meet him. And in so in my mind, there was a deputy chiefs position available because we had just had a deputy one of our deputy chiefs to retire, the position had not been filled. So I was just under the assumption. He was going to talk to me about that. But he asked me to meet him at his home. And so, you know, I was actually at a meeting at my church, I left and went home, put on a suit. And I went to meet him at his home. He gave me the address. But he was in shorts in casual, casual attire. And he sat in his living room for a couple of hours and asked me a lot of questions. Not about the deputy chief position, but general leadership questions about the department. My thought on where the department was in the consent decree, which was in the first year entering the second year, my thoughts on crime fighting my thoughts on community engagement. And then he, you know, he asked me a question about the chief, who was my boss? And he asked me a question, do we need a Black chief? Or do we need a white chief? And I was not expecting that question. So my answer to him was, we need a chief who is both endearing to the people. And also, while at the same time commanding the respect of the men and women who served under him or her. That's the kind of Chief we need. And then he asked the second question, he said, Well, does our chief do that? And I said, Well, with all due respect, you are his supervisor. And you, sir, do his evaluation, I said, I'm not with him, to observe him, to give him an evaluation of that

Chuck Wexler: 26:45

Sounds like it puts you in a very awkward position.

Michael Harrison: 26:48

He did put me in a very awkward position. But I know from some leadership training you you don't, you know, you never ever go negative on your boss, and never go negative on your boss, whoever they are, no matter how you really think, or feel about them. You know, everything is a test. And every conversation is really an interview. And so it was, you know, I had I held, I held superintendent surpassing extremely high regard. And I don't know how he felt about it. I didn't at that time, I held him in high regard. And so but my answer was, I really don't I can't answer that, because I don't observe him enough in that dynamic. And so he looked at me and smiled. And so it sort of it sorry, sort of became apparent to me that there was this conversation was not about the deputy chief position.

Chuck Wexler: 27:47

Well, he was kind of testing you to, you know, and you were being loyal to your boss. Let me, let me bring you back for a second. But there's a funny story. I remember, you wanted to go to the senior management institute of police, which is per second program. And you've been asked him to go to that program. Not too many people from New Orleans came to that program, but somehow you knew about it. And you kept asking the superintendent to go until you figured out something. I think that's an interesting story. Because, you know, sometimes people have to push themselves forward. A little harder. Can you tell that story?

Michael Harrison: 28:26

Well, yeah, I asked. At the time, the first time I asked as superintendent Warren Riley, to send me to that school. And I forget his answer, but I didn't get to go that year. Well, the next year will surpass was the superintendent. I asked him. And he said, Well, you know, you know, that's $10,000 or so. We don't have the money. I'm sorry, we can't do it. The next year, it was the same thing. Don't have the money. Can't do it. Third year, I asked the same thing. We don't have the money. We can't do it. Well, in 2014, I asked what I did some homework because I found out that we got a Police Foundation. And the longer I stay the commander, the more involved I got with the Police Foundation. And so I found out that that was an account, a discretionary account that the superintendent had, there was a large sum of money in it, and he could use it at his discretion. And for training or anything else, not personal but professional. And so I did some homework in the in 2014. When asked, I went into the meeting and I had my formal letter typed out, you know, singing his praises. You know, I want to model my career after yours. I want to be just like you all the things you tell your boss and by the way, I want to go to the senior management institute for police I understand the fee is, you know, nearly $10,000. But I'm not asking for the citizen opinion, I understand you have a discretionary account in the Police Foundation. Here's the account number, here's what I have learned is in that account. And I'm told that you have total discretion. And it's, you can use it and say, you know, for anything of your choosing, that's professional in nature. And he looked at me and he smiled. And that year, I got to go and one other person went with me, another commander went with me, and we had a great life changing professional life changing experience over the three weeks there, but for four years, and under two different superintendents, I tried to go, yeah. Now, I will say that for the three years, I asked, nobody else went either. Yeah. And so it wasn't like he just wasn't sending me it, nobody went. And those years we were under a hiring freeze. And so the superintendent could not hire could not purchase cars. And so I think spending was just something he could not do. But then that fourth year, I was able to go. And by the way, that while I was there, we had a deputy chief who had retired and there was a vacancy. I graduated from SMP, I want to say in July, then on August 14, the mayor tapped me is on August 12, is when I got the call to meet with him at his home. I met with him again the next day on the 13th at the office for 10 hours. And then that Monday morning, I got appointed to be the Superintendent of Police. So soon as I graduated from sa MIP, I was tapped to be the superintendent of the New Orleans Police Department.

Chuck Wexler: 32:00

Yeah, you made that happen. And you would you would subsequently because I remember I coming down, you had me speak to the corporate world in New Orleans, because you made it a point to raise money to send people to ask my opinion and to go on to do that in Baltimore as well.

Michael Harrison: 32:19

Yes, and because because I was a benefactor of private dollars. And I knew who in the business community put that money up. And believed in executive professional development, it became very important to me to raise money to do that for more people. And we were very successful, you were able to come to our annual meeting at the police Foundation's annual meeting as a as a keynote speaker. And it opened the eyes of many people in New Orleans, especially in the business community on how important leadership was and how important professional development was. So that we not only taught people how to fight crime, but we we were teaching people how to run an organization, which is very, very different. And I I made that a big emphasis of my leadership over the four and a half years I was in New Orleans and in Baltimore.

Chuck Wexler: 33:14

You became superintendent in New Orleans was under Mayor Mitch Landrieu. What did Mitch Landrieu teach you about the relationship between mayors and police chiefs?

Michael Harrison: 33:27

Well, he would say, from the very time I met him, and would say it until my last day. And we'll say it again. Now there should never been any light between the mayor and the police chief, there can be no light, there can be no air between the two. It has to be that kind of relationship. And he would even say, there's only a handful of people you can trust, that you should trust, that's going to be your your spouse, and me. And he said, Because you're one of the few people that aren't going to be able to trust you know, in the professional world. And that's why there should never be any light or air between us. And so anything that needs to be said, I should say anything that I shouldn't need to ask, I should ask it. And he should do the same. And no matter how bad or how horrible or how tough the conversation should be. I should always ask for a private moment to have it and to say what needs to be said, so that he's always aware of everything so that he can prepare answers if ever asked, and he can always be prepared. Likewise, he would make me aware of literally everything happening within city government, even if it wasn't police related, so that I would always be prepared to answer should I have to answer and that relationship evolved into one of the most magnificent, professional and purse Remote relationships. I still have to this day. I quote him a lot on the mayor, police chief relationship,

Chuck Wexler: 35:08

You would come in to New Orleans. And you would have to implement the consent decree. What is it like to implement the consent decree in a major American police department? Is it a burden? Is it an opportunity? Or is it a challenge?

Michael Harrison: 35:27

It's all three. It's all three, it is a burden. But the burden is an administrative burden. It's it's it because the laws have not changed, the Constitution has not changed. We still have the legal right to do police work, and to do it the way the Constitution allows us to do it. So it's an administrative burden to unlearn that behavior and practices and then relearn reteach and relearn the appropriate way to deliver policing services. It is a challenge, because So that's point 1.2. It's a challenge, because it is an agreement between the Department of Justice and the city and our police department, that the department with the help of the city would make a number of changes and reforms and stick to those reforms. According to national best practice standards. The challenge is to do it in a large agency in a short period of time. And it really is about changing culture. Culture is policy is easy to rewrite and change culture is extremely hard to change. Because it is both on learning bad behavior and practices reteaching and relearning the correct way. At the same time, it's the equivalent of firing and terminating every employee rehiring all new employees without firing anybody. And while you still have to conduct daily policing operations every day, with the very same people who put the department and the consent decree, it's the equivalent of what we would call building the plane while we're flying the plane. Point three, it is an opportunity because while I called it a burden, an administrative burden, it is a challenge. It's it's a managerial challenge. It is a great opportunity for a department to embrace it and become the department that was always supposed to be the department that people pay for deserve and expect. A department that is likely community policing centric and community driven, and treats community with dignity and respect and applies national proven best practices as a means of delivering police services. And it's an opportunity to turn the department around and make it into that. And but it does come with resistance with people who who are offended by having it said we have done this the wrong way. And getting them to relearn the right way, which makes them self thinking self reflect about what they've been doing. And so that's the challenge in telling people, this is how we're going to do it. You're not bad people, but we were doing something in a bad way on the wrong way.

Chuck Wexler: 38:26

New Orleans has a huge violent crime issue? Can you reduce violent crime and implement the consent decree at the same time? Or are there stages?

Michael Harrison: 38:39

You can do it, it can be done, and we proved it in New Orleans. We later proved it in Baltimore, under my leadership in both cities, it can be done, it is a challenge. I take you back to the when you call it a burden challenge and opportunity, it is a challenge because we have to do it with the people who are already employed with the agency, the very people who maybe participated in what we call unconstitutional practice patterns and practices of behavior. And we have to teach them that the way we were doing it was not correct. Teach them the correct way to doing it, without insulting them by calling them bad people. They're not. They're good people with great intentions. But it's about unlearning the bad behavior and re teaching and relearning the appropriate behavior practices. And then doing that over and over again until the entire agency has embraced the new way. And so it is extremely, extremely difficult. It takes a extremely long time, but it is doable and when when the agency begins to take the time. It's very noticeable. Not always to the members of the agency, but to the community is very noticeable that this is a different agency. And so four and a half years into my being the chief New Orleans, we totally turned it around. And it had become a moderate police department across the country in both reforms and in violence reduction, we had lowered the murder rate over the 40 year period to a 40 year low. And it hadn't seen the murder rate that woman for two years. And so although you know, those types change over time. crime reduction, violence reduction can be achieved while making reforms. Because the reforms actually built back that community trust that you need so much that helped you with solving cases, people are more inclined to communicate with law enforcement to tell you when crimes are being committed, and who's committing the crimes and when they're committing them when they have a level of trust. So the reform initiative, called the consent decree doesn't directly reduce crime, but it does directly change the perception of the people, which over time will have more confidence in the agency thus, will participate in its community engagement and reductions because the people are participating now, when at one time they did not.

Chuck Wexler: 41:15

It is a very expensive process, could you have done the things that you did to transform the New Orleans Police Department on your own without a consent decree? Because I know because your mayor had called me, you know, upset that the price tag, he got sticker shock.

Michael Harrison: 41:34

I could not have done it. I do not believe that any American police chief, most of whom I know, even the greats could not have done it in New Orleans without a consent decree. It needed the federal oversight, to reform and to correct itself. It needed the federal oversight. And, and this the the strength of the of a federal judge to hold the city and the department accountable. It needed that to force the department into reforming and complying with the terms of the consent decree, I could not have done it without the consent decree. Now, I know we're going to talk about Baltimore, the same question asked, I could not have done it. I do not believe any chief could have, could have meet with Baltimore without a consent decree. And I've answered that publicly many times about in about both cities.

Chuck Wexler: 42:32

Let's talk about Baltimore. Just in comparison, you're one of the few people in this country who has run to departments who have been under a consent decree New Orleans in Baltimore. How did the consent decree in Baltimore, compared to New Orleans?

Michael Harrison: 42:52

I think the consent decree in Baltimore was built off of lessons learned from the consent decree in New Orleans. And I think the Department of Justice did a much better job at the Baltimore consent decree, giving it more structure and more guidelines. You know, in New Orleans, we had to make adjustments to the consent decree, the mayor and I had to go to Washington DC to meet with Department of Justice and the Attorney General, to different attorney during three different Attorney General's, by the way, three different times to get adjustments made that the judge had to approve, because the consent decree was so comprehensive and so exhaustive that it sometimes had built in contradictions. For example, there were times it mandated us to put on so much training and do it so fast, that we would have more people in the classroom than we would actually have on the street patrol. This is in New Orleans, we have to make several adjustments over time which were approved, because they made sense. And I think the Baltimore consent decree those lessons carried over and were aligned. And so I think, a much better job was done in designing the Baltimore consent decree, although it is not the most exhaustive and comprehensive, and has surpassed New Orleans, which at the time was the most comprehensive. Now this is Baltimore's the most comprehensive in the country. And it may only be eclipsed by future consent decrees and other cities that we know of that are that are on the way, but the Baltimore consent decree, by the way, they're run by federal judges. There's a monitoring team of people who are hired that report to the judge, the Department of Justice has its attorneys and its representatives. And then you have the city and it's the city attorney, the police chief and the people within the department and were the subjects of the consent decree, but the judge actually oversees it. And depending on how the judge runs a court or sees their role can be very different. My experience In New Orleans is very different than the experience of Baltimore. But I will say the consent decree in Baltimore itself was designed off of lessons learned in New Orleans. Now, I've never had the opportunity to negotiate the terms of a consent decree, not in New Orleans, not in Baltimore, I became superintendent in New Orleans at the beginning of the second year of the decree. And likewise, when hired in Baltimore, we were in the second year of the consent decree.

Chuck Wexler: 45:27

Knowing what you know now. And if you were advising American police chiefs and sheriffs, what were the three things you would do that would position your city not to fall under a consent decree?

Michael Harrison: 45:42

Well, I would absolutely be looking, making chiefs and sheriffs and I'm now doing this work as a private consultant. But I would be advising them to look at national best practice policies. And so there are five, there are five areas that you have to look at policy, training, supervision, management, discipline, everything falls under one of those topics. And when you look at policies, training has to be built off of the policies, then supervision off of the training, and protocols for officer performance. And then supervisory supervisory functions, management, and then discipline, everything else uses a force fall under all of that all of that use of force will touch all of it, how officers interact with how they interact, how they introduce themselves, police legitimacy, all of that. Everything that we do that we're evaluated on falls in one of those buckets. And so if I could get our leaders to focus on policy, training, supervision, management and discipline, and every thing that touches that light uses of force, why vehicle pursuits, like police engagement, interaction, promotion, hiring, selection and promotion, discipline, how we deal with discipline, when we how we deal with technology. I think those five areas, if we could focus on the national best practice and look at cities that have done it well, that either turned around through a consent decree or cities that had good leadership that performed so well that it avoided a consent decree. And so the goal would be to create a department that has the type of professional culture, that is two things self assessing and self correcting.

Chuck Wexler: 47:40

Let's talk about culture for a second. When we're talking about Baltimore, we're talking about New Orleans. Now. What's the difference between the culture in New Orleans and the culture in Baltimore? You've been in both of those cities are what? Are they similar? Are they dissimilar?

Michael Harrison: 47:57

Well, the cities, the cities are similar. They're both major American cities, they both have high poverty, big high poverty, which, from poverty, everything else, kind of transcends. And so they both have issues with poverty. They both have issues with violent crime. They both have issues with a police department that had at one time lost its way had both had issues with leader leadership. mayors, city council members, senators, governors, Congressmen, by both cities have had issues with leadership losing its way and not and not leading at the highest level in the appropriate way. Both cities have had consent decrees. Both cities are full destination cities and food cities. But the culture, the culture of the people in New Orleans is really a sort of a laissez faire kind of culture. And people are not as inclined to protest. They're not as inclined to stay angry for a long time. In Baltimore, Baltimore has seen so many things go wrong, that people are skeptical, so skeptical of government, much like New Orleans, but I think in a more enhanced way. They're skeptical of that very skeptical of government and distrusting of government. I think they have the right to be that way. They are more apt to challenge government and protests, then, like the case in New Orleans, but both have had its challenges with politicians with the police departments with crime with investment or disinvestment. They both have issues with the education system. And so we we deal with violent crime as a manifestation Of all the social ills that are either unaddressed or poorly addressed. And then people look for the police department to kind of fix it all, which is the wrong thing to do. And because they look for the police department to fix it all police got involved in things that should have never been involved in, and then sort of lost its way. And so my experience in New Orleans, that's where I was born and raised up until I was 48 years old, I was there until I moved to Baltimore. So it was all like, I traveled and my wife and I had traveled. But there's the one only one place I've worked in the city of New Orleans. And so, but in Baltimore, I was the outsider. And it, they're, they're not very, and I don't know that they are now not very trusting in outsiders who are not from Baltimore, who didn't grow up in the Baltimore community. And so while I was able to make a lot of headway, and build a lot of professional and personal networks, and engage many stakeholders, in a positive way, I think there always remains a level of skepticism of an outsider, who was not from Baltimore, to enter Baltimore with such a high level of responsibility for helping the change, what people perceive is wrong with with the city, but they're both they're both great cities, they both have a lot of potential to be great. And I've enjoyed my experience immensely. And both.

Chuck Wexler: 51:29

How do you real quickly now, how do you identify a rising star? You come into a department, whether it's, you know, growing up in New Orleans or in Baltimore? How do you identify that that person who's, you know, going to be successful? What attributes do they have?

Michael Harrison: 51:47

Well, I, of course, I look at the obvious things that people want to look at education, credentials, temperament, their knowledge, skill and ability. But I want to look at, are they so conditioned to follow the status quo, even if the status quo is obviously wrong and bad? Are they willing to challenge the status quo, and, and fake on their own and think outside the box, challenge the status quo? And to, to know when they see something that is not correct? And then do whatever is necessary to correct what needs to be corrected? In spite of the opposition, in spite of pushback, in spite of how people might even feel about them or view them? So I look at all of that in person to see if they have the willingness to take on a new way of thinking and a new way of operating.

Chuck Wexler: 52:53

How do you motivate a mediocre employee?

Michael Harrison: 52:57

Well, I think the first thing we have to do is figure out who we have and who we need and where we want people to go, everybody will not be an exceptional employee right away. How do we move people from one area to the next and make them graduate and elevate to exceptional, and I think it is number one leading by example, you know, not asking people to do what you yourself would not be willing to do not that you're supposed to do their job for them. But living a lifestyle of professionalism, living a lifestyle of pursuing excellence, always being in their presence, guiding them with positive interactions, staying away from and dispelling the negative interactions, and every time you see something that is incorrect, correct it. And I live via statement that whatever you don't correct, you teach, whatever you don't correct, you condone. And so I'm constantly even in a professional, nice way, though. I'm not always telling people that doing something wrong. I have to make sure I'm living a lifestyle of the pursuit of excellence.

Chuck Wexler: 54:16

Other decisions that you made, that if you could revisit them, you would do something differently?

Michael Harrison: 54:22

I think there was one decision. It was not a wrong decision, but I could have done it better. And when I moved to Baltimore, I was the insider in New Orleans, I come up through the ranks of that department. I was the outsider brand new into Baltimore. And so in assessing talent and trying to figure out who had the knowledge, skill, ability and temperament to be on the command level team or the executive team. I put together a panel of people to interview maybe about 60 candidates, from captain and above. Captain, major, Lieutenant, Colonel, colonel and Deputy Commissioner and a number of civilian executives, and we conducted those interviews and I had help. I'm gratefule PERF sent me somebody, I had somebody from the inside of the department, the one thing I did not do was, I didn't have minority representation on that panel. Going back, I would have minority representation on that panel. And I would have outside representation, perhaps from a community representative, so that, in the end, I could say we had a diverse panel of folk from inside the department, outside the department from a professional organization, but also outside the department from the community. And someone inside the department, but we had a good makeup of diverse representation, to assess the to assess the knowledge, skill, ability, talent and temperament of the individuals that we were going to choose to be in certain positions. And if I had to go back and do it again, I would certainly be far more inclusive than I was when I created this panel, because I was the outsider once again, and I could have been given now looking back on it much better insight into the agency's culture. If I'd had, you know, one or two more people on that panel.

Chuck Wexler: 56:22

You came up to the New Orleans Police Department, you were you were a superintendent there for six years, implemented the consent decree put things in place, and then dealt with violent crime. You came to Baltimore in 2019. When you come into a department, you know nothing about it. It's a gigantic department. How do you scope out who the stars are in a police department? How do you do that? Some people argue you got to make change really fast. Some people argue it should be a more methodical process. What is the Mike Harrison approach to a department like that?

Michael Harrison: 57:03

Well, now that I've done it in Baltimore, and comparing it to what I had to do as the insider in New Orleans, I'm absolutely sure that the Mike Harrison approach is both spending time with candidates to the extent that you can, watching them perform in their own element with their subordinates, but with the external community stakeholders. And so I did that in Baltimore, not only did we interview 60 or more individuals who were from the ranks of Captain and above, but I went to every district and I watched the commanders engage with their officers, I watched them not only in ComStat, but I went to the districts and watch them engage with their officers, but I watched them engage with their community members. And not only that I have takeaways from the interviews, but I had takeaways from the leadership style, and what their focus was watching them in their element with their subordinates, but then watching them with community members, you know, I could tell pretty quickly, who was talented enough, and who has leadership ability, who had knowledge and skill on how to do that. And it quickly became apparent to me who did not have it. And so it really is about putting together a comprehensive, diverse team of people to assess the talent in a process in an interview competitive process. But you still have to spend the time with them, watching them and observing them actually performing their duties. And there were times I had to create the environment, and create a scenario based environment that made them perform in order for me to observe it, and then come into contact with what I wanted to ask them about and make them regurgitate why they do what they do what the focus was. So I think you'd have to do that the thing we found in Baltimore is that there were no job descriptions written for anybody captains. And above. There were no performance evaluations done on anybody, captains, and above. And so no one really knew what they were supposed to do, because there was no job description to work from. And they had no performance evaluation to tell them how if they were doing well, if they were doing poorly. And so that was a big shock to me, we had to create that. And using what I just told you, we created both job descriptions and performance evaluations to use as a guide on what should the commander be doing? What should an executive be doing? And how do we determine if it's done poorly, or if it's done well, but the Mike Harrison approach is to spend time with them and watching them and the environment that they're in, but create an environment for them to perform and to see if they actually know how to do it. And if not, are they willing to learn

Chuck Wexler: 59:58

One thing, Seen a lot of from your experience in Baltimore in New Orleans, is you you believe in mentoring you, you actually, you know have sent people a lot of people that some it but you send people all over and people send people to you, when you were in Baltimore to observe you to spend time with you. And as matter of fact, on Saturday afternoons you can be found in your house, wherever the heck you are making phone calls all day to people across the country. Mentoring is a big part of what you do, isn't it?

Michael Harrison: 1:00:34

It's a big part of what I do, because it was a big part of how I learned from others who did this job before me and was doing with me, and who helped me evolve into the chief I became and that I am now. And so it's a big part of my development. And I believe it's a big part of the learning experience as an aspiring chief. And even once you become a chief, you still have to have a mentor. I have mentors. Every coach needs a coach, every teacher needs a teacher, I believe every chief needs a chief. And so I still look to certain people who were mentors to guide me even now even in retirement. But I spend time every week, at least for the first three years going into my fourth year, on Saturdays and Sundays, calling a number of people around the corner, sometimes just to check on them. But more often than not that conversation evolved into a troubleshoot about, you know how to think about different scenarios and situations, especially in navigating the political environment that police chiefs find themselves in.

Chuck Wexler: 1:01:47

So some people will listen to this and go, geez, I don't have a mentor. How do I how do you get a mentor? How does someone in the police department? Get a mentor?

Michael Harrison: 1:01:57

Well, I think you you have to think about what nuances you're dealing with and where your shortcomings are and figure out who out there has experienced in this area? And how do I avail myself to them and get them to avail themselves to me, one of the great things they can do is if they're a PERF member, they can just ask Chuck Wexler, who can you recommend? And you know, and now I am I've embarked on consulting, in Harrison consultant and out spend more time telling you about that. But they can reach out to you they can reach out to other associations they belong to to ask for and you, you've recommended me on more than one occasion, there have been other agencies that have recommended me and people have spent a week with me a week and a half, three days, you know, but I spend time calling and checking on them, you know, if not every week or every other week. And they call me to ask questions about, you know, crime fighting strategies, hiring and promotional processes.

Chuck Wexler: 1:03:09

In our remaining minutes. Baltimore, New Orleans, which city has the better restaurants?

Michael Harrison: 1:03:16

I will say that both cities are food cities, both cities have absolutely great restaurants, but it's a different style of cooking. And I've been to some of the best restaurants I've ever been in in Baltimore. But there is no comparison to the style of New Orleans cooking the New Orleans cooking style. And you just can't people from around the world. rave about New Orleans food. What you eat for lunch, you still taste for dinner, what you eat for dinner, you still taste for breakfast, you don't get that anywhere else. And there's so many delicacies. While they both have great restaurants. They both have great chefs. It's the style of cooking that makes New Orleans the place that surpasses every city in America, not just Baltimore but every city in America.

Chuck Wexler: 1:04:08

You know, you're someone that has really given a lot to this profession. You know, you you work around the clock both in New Orleans and Baltimore. Those are 24 hour, seven day a week jobs they take a toll. What is what is Mike Harrison and his lovely wife, what do you do to to the step back and really find some time to, to kind of come calm your nerves and understand life a little better?

Michael Harrison: 1:04:37

Well, you know, we always enjoy the company of good friends and we always enjoy a night out on the town with dinner maybe with friends, sometimes by ourselves. We enjoy culture, we enjoy the arts. And so we will find shows to attend and things to do that are cultural, and cultural and whether they're here We're in Baltimore in New Orleans, so we have to travel somewhere else. And, you know, I'm a music guy, I love music. So I spend a lot of time, you know, decompressing and listening to music, jazz and classical primarily. But we get away we traveled, we just spent a week in Italy. So different places in Italy, we've been to multiple places in the Caribbean, and we love travel, we love the arts and culture, and getting away. Well, we're not talking about policing and not talking about work, it's been a good time with friends. You know, you and I have had the opportunity to dine in multiple places in America. That's, that's always something I treasure and in with you and with others, just the time with friends, you know, who I've grown to love and admire? And that network of people who, who I'm close to who my wife is also close to. That's what keeps us sane.

Chuck Wexler: 1:05:59

Finally, you know, having worked all your life, in you know, two major cities and accomplished all that you have. That's very stressful. But stress can be kind of addictive, isn't it? In other words, going from 100 miles an hour now to a different lifestyle? How does that feel? And what's next for Mike Harrison?

Michael Harrison: 1:06:23

Well, they teach you how to go from zero to 100. And but nobody ever teaches you how to go from 100 to zero. And so it is an adjustment. And so I am now for three quarter years in New Orleans, and four and a half years in Baltimore and more than nine years as a major city chief. And now in the know, embarking upon consulting. That's what's next for Mike Harrison. You know, we will see my I'm keeping my options open, we will see what the next year or two, what happens if I get the itch again, or my phone rings. And Chuck Wexler is on the other end and telling me what he told me four and a half years ago, we'll see what happens if if and when that ever happens. But right now consulting spending time with family, making sure that my granddaughter is not growing up without my wife and me that we're spending time with her that we were giving our kids some of the time that we missed with me running two major police departments and being away from them. And so what's next is recovering from that accent time and trying to you know, get that family time back in and maybe look at the profession from a different lens and be helpful in a different way.

Chuck Wexler: 1:07:38

Well, you know, it sounds to me, like this is in your blood. This is what you do. This is what you know, there aren't very many people who have done what you've done to very challenging cities to consent decrees to cities with significant violent crime. It feels like you've made a huge difference in the communities and in the careers of a lot of people. And we thank you very much. You were President of PERF. We should point that out. Served for four years and really excellent leadership. Thank you, Mike Harrison, for all you've done and for what you will continue to do because I know we will continue to hear a lot about Mike Harrison. Thank you very much my friend.

Michael Harrison: 1:08:22

Thank you, Chuck. Always a pleasure. Thank you.

Dustin Waters: 1:08:27

Thanks for listening to this episode of podcast the official podcast of the Police Executive Research Forum. Please be sure to subscribe on your podcast platform of choice and stay tuned for upcoming episodes. For more information on PERF, visit www.policeforum.org or follow us on Twitter @policeforum. Thanks again for listening