In part two, Chuck talks with current Chief Gabe Rodriguez, a Camden native, and Camden community members about their experiences in the city before and after the reform.
Speakers (6) in order of appearance:
This podcast series is part of the Critical Issues in Policing series, supported by the Motorola Solutions Foundation.
Thanks for listening to PERFcast, the official podcast of the Police Executive Research Forum. For more information on PERF, visit www.policeforum.org.
In part two, Chuck talks with current Chief Gabe Rodriguez, a Camden native, and Camden community members about their experiences in the city before and after the reform.
Speakers (6) in order of appearance:
This podcast series is part of the Critical Issues in Policing series, supported by the Motorola Solutions Foundation.
Thanks for listening to PERFcast, the official podcast of the Police Executive Research Forum. For more information on PERF, visit www.policeforum.org.
Welcome to PERFcast, the official podcast of the Police Executive Research Forum.
Rachel Apfelbaum:Hi, I'm Rachel Apfelbaum, a senior research associate at PERF. Thank you for listening to this podcast series on building public trust. In part one of this episode you heard from former chief Scott Thomson about the approaches and strategies used to build the Camden County New Jersey Police Department from the ground up to become a model for building community trust and policing reform. Now, you'll hear PERF Executive Director Chuck Wexler speak with current chief Gabe Rodriguez and Camden community members about their experiences in the city before and after the reform and the lessons learned. Camden community member Sheilah Greene is the outreach specialist for the Parkside Business and Community Partnership nonprofit. She's also a board president of Superior Arts, which engages youth in arts and environmental initiatives to clean up the city. Here's Chuck's conversation with Sheilah Greene.
Chuck Wexler:Ms. Greene, thank you for agreeing to talk with us. Tell me a little bit about your life in Camden. As I understand it, you were 10 when you came there; what was Camden like then? And talk a little bit about your experience in your early years in Camden, if you would.
Sheilah Greene:I got here about 1965. So I was about 10 years old when I got here. I lived in in North Camden area, what would you call a very community-oriented area that I lived in. I lived on Bailey Street in North Camden; multiple families that lived around us, lots of families--Hispanic, Jewish, Black--all of us lived in the same neighborhood, on the same block. We all watched out for each other; we all watched out for each other's properties. Crime was not one of the things that we talked about because it somewhat didn't exist. For the most part you could go to bed at night and leave your porch doors unlocked and open just for the sake of being able to get a nice cool breeze coming through your house without putting on air conditioners or fans. So we had a really good lifestyle during that time period. We had issues that everybody else would have, but nothing really detrimental. Nothing changed until around 1968. And that's when things changed dramatically in Camden City.
Chuck Wexler:What happened in 1968? I know that was a real big year in the country. You know, you had had events in Chicago, you had assassinations if I'm not mistaken. What was happening in Camden at that time?
Sheilah Greene:Oh, right around I think it was like the late spring, early summer of 1968, a young man was arrested. It's just a story that I was told; I wasn't affiliated with anything because I was only 13. A young man was arrested and put in the jail that was inside of the city hall building. Somehow, some way he lost his life somehow and they blamed the police officer for his loss of life. He was Hispanic. It set off a fireball. It set off a terrifying fireball. We had Lit Brothers, Gimbles as stores that were in our neighborhoods; we had Jewelers' Row on Broadway. We had all different types of stores that took care of the neighborhood. A lot of them were Jewish owned during this time period. When this situation happened--a riot that I had never expected to hear about because all the riots were in New York or other places--and here we are in the middle of a riot, where people are very upset about the fact that, you know, this man's life was taken unnecessarily. The streets became very dangerous at that moment. We had the National Guard come in, that was told by, I guess, the governor called the National Guard in. We had men with high boots, jacket armor, and shotguns on their hips, pointing, you know, up in the air, but they were like everywhere. Walking to school was the scariest thing because you didn't know what was going to happen. You didn't know how it was going to happen. So a lot of people were not very happy at that point. We were given a symbolism to do that was something that came straight from the Bible, like put the blood on the doorposts and the lintels, but we were just putting red paint or a red flag or red shirt or red something on the front of your house to say that you were in solidarity with those that were rioting so they they would not attack your home and firebomb your house. So we had to go through that part of it and it lasted for longer than I wanted it to last. I saw so much destruction happen during that time period. It wasn't a whole lot of time. It was only a couple of weeks. It lasted like about a month. But in a short amount of time, there was a lot of destruction. And, you know, growing up and saying, Does this happen all the time? Will this happen again? You know, that was the sad part about it. But after it was over, and then you know, after, after the dust cleared, there was none of what we remember. Everything that we knew was not there anymore. The stores were closed, the jewelers were closed, they broke into everything. They destroyed everything.
Chuck Wexler:So that was a real turning point. Did those stores come back? Was that a major change in the neighborhood? And did that start Camden on a different road?
Sheilah Greene:Yes, it did. Camden started to decline right after that. I guess everybody was afraid to do business in Camden anymore. Camden was the mecca for Philadelphia, where Philadelphians would take the train, the bridge, the bus during that time period and come across the bridge to go shopping in Camden. I mean, you would see people dressed like, you know, people from the Donna Reed Show with, you know, the pearls and tea-length dress and, you know, nice hairdo and everything. Like it was a Sunday afternoon, and they bring their kids over and go shop. And after the riot, all of that was gone. There was nothing; we had nothing to work with.
Chuck Wexler:So the people, the business people didn't come back. People were afraid to come to Camden from Philadelphia. How did the neighborhood change?
Sheilah Greene:It was not what I was expecting. I was hoping that all the businesses would come back, but they didn't. It started getting worse. Drugs started entering the neighborhoods. I didn't even know what it was and have no idea what the names of these drugs that they were talking about--heroin and cocaine and all of these different things. And it was scary because you didn't know who was with it or who was in it and who wasn't. And it got even scarier because the police started to play a part in this drug game.
Chuck Wexler:So interesting. Let's segue to the police since the focus here is how the community and the police got along. What happened with the police?
Sheilah Greene: Well, the police basically, I don't know what happened. You know, we looked at them as the serve-and-protect unit of our city:take care of us, watch over us, make sure we're okay. And after the riots, and after the drugs started entering--drugs were so plentiful, there was so much of it. And it just was like a big snowstorm kind of disorder. And the police started playing various parts in it, that we didn't know who were the good guys and who were the bad guys. You could not trust them. You never knew when they were going to do something that was totally against what it was that you, you know, wanted or needed. I mean, women were being pulled over and things were being asked of them that were not normal, and it was not morally right. Things were happening that we could not prove. The Department of Internal Affairs was like a joke. There was no way to report to anybody. So we just had to live this life underneath of these people who somewhat, somewhere did not care about us. Up until, I think it was the 1990s, and a new chief of police that came in during this time period was Allenbach. And Allenbach and the senators--at that time it was Torricelli--and other people started looking at the crime situation in Camden City. They received more money from the federal government to put in more police; they called it boots on the street. And we had more cops walking the beats instead of them just being in cars. It was still the Camden City police so we still didn't trust it, but it was good to see them looking out for the neighborhoods more than they had been. And that stayed on for a while. And then after Allenbach left, things seemed like they returned back to normal, back to where it was before. Up until I think Chief Thomson came in. Chief Thomson came on board, things started changing again; he started doing neighborhood walks with Deputy Chief Wysocki. They would come into the neighborhoods; that's how I actually learned who they were. We would have conversations about, you know, things that were in the neighborhood--problems that were in the neighborhood and things like that. That stayed that way, and things started to change somewhat. It still wasn't at the point where it was a trust factor. And then the whole police force changed. Then it turned into the Camden County police force and we were like, This is not going to be good for us. I mean, this is the county now and then the county did not seem like they were interested in what the city was going through. But it turned out to be actually a blessing. Because the county looked at what it was that we were going through, and they realized that we were struggling and suffering to something that did not have to be. And it changed.
Chuck Wexler: This strikes me as a key moment:the change in policing. Here you are, you've lived there for years, you saw it before the riots, after the riots, and then you saw the department deteriorate. What were some of the key aspects of what you observed when the police started to change? What were some of the ways the police department made the community feel that they could trust the police again? At least what were the early steps that you saw that you said, Wait a second, something's changing here?
Sheilah Greene:In the earlier part of it it didn't look good at all. They came in wrong. They were outsiders, and they had been hired by the county, and they came into Camden City with this mentality that we were a problem and they had to fix it. They came in with combat boots on and they had on, you know, chest protectors and came in looking like SWAT. And they're walking through the neighborhoods, you know, all hard core and everything. And one thing led to another as we were watching this happen, like, are you going to be any better than what we had? Because it doesn't seem like it's going to be any better than what we had. But at the very end of the day, we found ourselves with a situation that had to be rectified. So I as a citizen--just me, I can't speak for everybody else--I started actually talking to them. I said, You guys are new. You don't know our city, you don't know us, you have no idea what we've been through. You have no idea of what we've struggled and suffered through. We talked to them. I kept talking to them. Every time I saw them, everywhere I saw them, I was trying to help them to assimilate themselves to the city, to do some of the things that they needed to do. And at the end of the day we started watching the change. It still took a while for trust to develop. Trust was very--children had been killed, you know, husbands had been killed, women had been raped, all kinds of things had gone on with the former police department and the things that they had gone through. At the very end of it all, we come to find out that Chief Thomson, then Wysocki, now Rodriguez, they all were looking at these plans to change whatever. But one of the things that happened when Chief Wysocki became chief was that there was a whole program that the federal government had initiated on community service, and this whole community service thing changed to community policing in Camden City, how the police were going to act and interact with the communities within the city. And things changed. They started doing barbecues, and they started having games, and they started, you know, coming out to all of our events and they became people. They were humans for change instead of them being these robotic things that were just walking around carrying a gun and a Taser. Once we got that part of it down to a science, we kept working on it and working on it and working on it and Wysocki was doing very well. As for getting out there, every event that there was, that man was there. When we would call him, he was there--especially in my particular part of the neighborhood, which is Parkside. Then we had the George Floyd killing, the murder, that happened in front of millions of people right in front of their face. We were expecting Camden to go right back to the riot. We were expecting it. But because we had already solidified the relationship with the Camden County Police Department and with the chief, it did not happen. We did not have any incidents in Camden City whatsoever. Matter of fact, we became the poster kids and had a solidarity movement when we were walking with them and having press conferences and talking about what happened and everything. And everything from that point just kind of spiraled out and we became like family, kind of sort of. There were still some negatives; you know, if I looked at it from 100%? No, we were somewhere in around 83%. The young people--that was the most important part, having young children walk up to a police officer and hug them around their leg just to say Hi and having them being picked up. Officers playing football with the children, playing basketball with the children, jumping double dutch with the girls. All of these different things started to come into play. And then Chief Wysocki decided that he was going to retire. And I said, Oh my God, now what? What's going to happen now? You know, we were doing almost decent. We were doing okay. And and he introduced me and I'm telling you this short story, he called me on the phone. He told me, Sheilah, what are you doing? I said I'm home. He came to my house; he brought at that time Captain Rodriguez. So he said, I got good news and bad news for you. I said, Okay, give me the bad news first. He said, The bad news is that I'm leaving. And you know, my whole heart just dropped. I'm like, Oh my God, you know, you're my friend. How are you leaving? You're the first police officer that's been a friend to me. And he said, the good news is you're looking at your new chief. And I turned around and looked at Gabe and I'm like, Oh my God, you know. So it was a one of those balancing moments. But when he left and the guard was changed, we went through COVID. We were going through everything. Chief Rodriguez and I just kind of took on and bonded, like a bonding that I can't describe. He's family to me. He's like my little brother.
Chuck Wexler:When you talk, it seems to me to be a real turning point when you can relate to the police not as the police but as human beings. Would you say that's correct?
Sheilah Greene: Yes, one of the things I learned, I was watching the country, a whole entire nation, a nation was going through a lot with the police forces all over the place, from California to Maine to Florida and everything in between. And they were all blue. That's how we looked at them. They were the blues:the blues were there to inflict something on you that wasn't going to work right. You know, in New Jersey, especially in Newark, and in our North Jersey areas, our police force up there was terrible. It was absolutely terrible. But then here comes a little teeny, nine-square-mile Camden, Camden City, who's going to change the face of policing to the point where they showed you what community policing is supposed to look like. They told me what de-escalation was and how they were implementing it. They practiced it and they did it daily, every single day; they were doing the same thing. And it was a lot of things that we were telling them, like, You need to actually write tickets for people that's doing wrong things. And they're like, Nah, we don't want to do that just yet. We want to give them an opportunity to change and everything. So they started doing those things. And to the point where, you know, as President Obama was leaving office, he came to Camden and had a very in-depth conversation with the community to tell them that, you know, he is so very proud of the fact that Camden City stepped up. And now everybody is looking at Camden City as being the model. And there was a lot of pressure at that time.
Chuck Wexler:Let me ask you something. Because people will listen to this and they say, Well, you know, it sounds like the police were working really hard to build trust. The question is, how did it impact crime? What happened with crime during this period?
Sheilah Greene:Okay, because trust had been built, or was being built, crime had to go down. Because more people started talking. People started telling what was going on, like, we were trying to find ways that did not put us out in front, where the criminals could see you doing what you were doing. So we started using our phones a lot, a lot. Take pictures, I used to tell them. I said, take a picture, send it, send it to me, send it to whomever, and we'll get it over to the chief and let them do what they have to do. We were learning how to describe the person. I said, look at something in your house and look at something that's six feet. And if it's under six feet, tell them was under six feet. What they had on--white jacket, black pants, whatever. What direction you saw them going in, what did you see. And that started to escalate; more and more of the residents started doing some of the same thing. And once they started to do that, we changed our whole environment with the police department. We became what you call the secondary police to them, like we told them from the door. We said, if you respect us, we will respect you. We will help you in every way we can. But if you do not respect us, we will not respect you. And we meant it.
Chuck Wexler:So what the takeaway here is not only treating people like human beings is the right thing to do, but it also happens to help impact the most serious aspect of policing, which is reducing and preventing crime. Is that fair?
Sheilah Greene:Yes, exactly. Crime went down so dramatically in Camden. Like, we felt a lot more safe in our own city than we had in decades because of the fact that we did not have to worry about being pulled over for stupid things or, you know, unnecessary things. The crime was not where it was in the '80s or early '90s. By the time that this officer took place, and changed his staff, elevated women, elevated minorities, made sure that people had, you know, equality within the police force, the humanity, the huge humanitarian part of it, just kind of like gelled, like everybody has started to come together. They're not just the blues; they have families, they go home, they eat, they cook, they have barbecues, just like we do.
Chuck Wexler: Last question:as I listen to you and you describe the length of time you've been in Camden, the turning point being with Chief Thomson and then Wysocki and then Rodriguez, sometimes in policing the change of administration can change the style. It sounds to me that there were ways in which the department continued in the direction that you've talked about throughout these three administrations. Is that correct?
Sheilah Greene:Yes, I am sure that Chief Thomson laid the foundation for them to follow. If I look at it from this perspective, Thomson bought the land, Wysocki planted the seed, and Rodriguez watered it so that it could grow,
Chuck Wexler:Ms. Greene, you've told a wonderful story that I think a lot of people will learn from. Thank you so much for your time.
Rachel Apfelbaum:Chief Gabe Rodriguez is an East Camden native who joined the former City of Camden Police Department over 20 years ago. He's now the third chief in the new Camden County Police Department's history and assumed leadership in 2020. Here's Chuck's conversation with Chief Rodriguez.
Chuck Wexler:So Gabe Rodriguez, you actually grew up in Camden. What was that like for you, growing up in Camden?
Gabe Rodriguez: It was challenging, Chuck, to say the least. I grew up in one of the more dangerous neighborhoods in Camden City: McGuire Garden Apartments, which were called the projects at the time. You know, not many people make it out of the projects. In the '80s and '90s it was the most dangerous neighborhood in Camden City. Most of my childhood friends have died due to the street violence or incarcerated. Do you know I come from what you call a broken home--a single mother on welfare raising four children alone. And when you walked out onto your front steps, there were people selling drugs; there were prostitutes on every corner. You know, just to walk to elementary school I had to take one route going and a different route coming back; I had to focus on survival. It was a neighborhood where there wasn't a lot of hope. Your focus was surviving that day. Kids often do fire drills, we did shooting drills:drop and crawl. I experienced a lot. If, you know, the streets gave out degrees, I would have a doctorate in the street knowledge.
Chuck Wexler:What was it that made you navigate through what is ostensibly, you know, a difficult environment? What were some of the early impacts on you that made things come out so well for you?
Gabe Rodriguez:So, you know, really witnessing how the good people in the neighborhood, and there were far more good than bad, were kind of prisoners of their home. They were afraid to come out, and when they did, it was just to go to their car to get groceries and right back inside. You know, I witnessed people being shot. You know, I've had family members die out in the street--again, as I mentioned, friends. One of the first assignments that I ever responded to my rookie year was one of my best friends that was shot twice in the head. And he had a gun in his hand. I didn't know anything outside of Camden City, but I knew there had to be more and I wanted to be part of that solution to making it better.
Chuck Wexler:Well, certainly admirable. What were the police like? What was the relationship between the police and the community as you were growing up?
Gabe Rodriguez:It was non-existent. You know, you only saw the police when something bad was happening. When the police drove through the neighborhood, you knew they were coming in to arrest someone or to bag up a body. And you never wanted to make eye contact with the police because you were going to be stopped and frisked. We feared the police in a sense and hated them at the same time. And that was another challenge getting into this profession. I'm in my 21st year now; in the beginning I still had those feelings towards other members of the police department and realized that the way they spoke at the time was they viewed Camden as a jungle and everyone was an animal. Some officers even said it was a toilet full of crap. I saw it different because I grew up in this city, and I knew all the great people that helped raise me, that suffered as much as I did. And those comments were, you know, upsetting to hear. But I was glad I was gonna be part of something to bring change, to be that example that I came from Camden and a lot of good can come from it as well.
Chuck Wexler:So you take a chance. You're going to join and you're going to make a difference. And look where you are now--you're the police chief, what a great story! But let's talk about, you're a police officer in Camden and it still has to be pretty challenging. What was that like for you, growing up in the police department?
Gabe Rodriguez: We were still experiencing crime rates that were through the roof. We were the most dangerous city in the country, which was nothing we were very proud of. And the way I was taught to do my job was just arrest people:go out there and arrest someone every day, issue summonses, whoever you see on the corner, stop them. So you know, my first 10 years in the police department I thought the way to making the city better is by arresting our way out of this problem. And I was totally wrong.
Chuck Wexler:So the first 10 years, you're arresting people. I suspect, knowing why you joined, you're probably pretty frustrated. Then drawing your attention to the period right before Scott Thomson becomes police chief, what was the relationship like with the community and the police?
Gabe Rodriguez:Again, it was still non-existent. I knew people because I grew up here, but I didn't build any new relationships. There were sections of the city that I never set foot into; my first assigned area, it was the first time I ever was in that section of Camden City. And I never got out of my police car and introduce myself to people. That wasn't what we were being taught, you know; it was about making sure that we came to work together--the police officers--and that we left all together that night and did whatever we could. It was about, you know, making arrests; it was about getting an award for making a good gun arrest or drug arrest. That was kind of the focus. But we're arresting all these people and things continue to be the same. We're taking someone off the corner and another one pops up, you know, five minutes after we leave. So it was frustrating. My first, I want to say six months on the police force, I kind of wanted to quit, because I didn't feel like I was making an impact or any change whatsoever. But I was trying to be patient. I was young; I was hired at age 19. So I was still maturing as well.
Chuck Wexler:So now, Scott Thomson assumes the role of chief. Talk about that period and some of your observations from where you stood as to what you were seeing and how it compared to the experience that you grew up in and how the department was. This had to be one of the more seminal events in the history of the Camden Police Department. I don't mean to exaggerate, but knowing that your department as I do, this was a significant turning point.
Gabe Rodriguez:My earliest memory of when Scott became chief was, I felt bad for the guy. Because, you know, there was a culture in the agency where there was no respect for the command staff and even less respect for the community. He had a lot of challenges ahead of himself. He from day one made sure that everyone knew that it was going to be a new day. And after he began his tenure, I mean, there were lawsuits coming in every week. He was being sued any time he tried to make a policy change. There were fights between him and the union; there were so many obstacles being put in front of him. But he was not deterred by that. And I admire the man for that. And then shortly after I get my first layoff slip, because now the city could not afford its police department any more. At the time, I was a detective in our homicide unit. We've had an average of close to 68 homicides a year within eight square miles; how are we going to lay off half of the police force? I didn't think it was going to happen. But it did. And I was one of those folks laid off.
Chuck Wexler:So you get laid off. What were some of the initial aspects of what Chief Thomson did that started to regain trust in the community? How did that start? Because that's the key part of this whole project. The community is very distrustful of the police; the police had a very, you know, antagonistic relationship with the community. Where does that start?
Gabe Rodriguez: It started with, when he said community policing, we're going to do things different. I was part of community policing units, and we just made more arrests than other officers; we have more time on our hands. But he started enforcing, you know, get out of your car:walking patrols, bike patrols, different community events where he had officers and different commanders attending. You know, those things were just not common. And, you know, really start to know people where they are, and not when you're just responding to an assignment. It was the beginning of a lot of different changes for us here. And it wasn't until 2013, when the city force was disbanded, that the culture of the agency truly changed. At that time I'd had 11 and a half years on, and I received my first thank you for doing what you're doing. And that was because I was on a walking beat and knocking on doors and saying hi to people, and in 11 and a half years I had never heard someone say that to me. It's because I was driving around and with my windows up looking for bad people.
Chuck Wexler:You know, in terms of the county police versus the city police, how was that rehire process? How did that go? Was that difficult?
Gabe Rodriguez:So I was laid off, I was brought back to the city force, and less than a year later I received another pink slip. This time there was no police agency to come back to. You had to reapply; there was going to be a new police force established. So you had to fill out the 50-page application, you had to get a background check done. You were a new hire, you know--psych evaluation, physical evaluation. So you had to go through everything as if you were a new hire. And again, you know, it was something that I immediately signed up for. The union was telling everyone not to; they could not create a new force without the Camden City police officers. But the same union members, I learned later on, were some of the first ones that applied. So there were a lot of officers that were left behind.
Chuck Wexler:You know, one of the things that interests me is, sometimes when someone comes into a position like yours there's a tendency to undo what's been done in the past. But that hasn't happened in Camden. Let's talk about your relationship with the community. How have you taken policing and Camden to the next level as it relates to trust?
Gabe Rodriguez: So I knew, you know, all the great things that Scott Thomson did during his time here and Chief Wysocki tried to maintain during the peak of COVID and the George Floyd murder. So he had a challenging one-year tenure here between Chief Thomson and I. I just want to continue to build off of that momentum, right? We, they both did some great things. Chief Thomson established a strong community policing foundation here. And I was not going to change that. I just wanted to make sure I polished it more, and just put a little bit of my fingerprint on its routine and make it better beyond my years. So I've created different programs such as the village initiative, which is something that I'm proud of. It's an initiative that really asks everyone from the collective community to come together. These are grassroot folks, clergy, elected leaders all come together for one common mission:to focus on our youth and creating safe spaces for them and events and activities to keep them occupied. They're not just, you know, walking the streets doing things that they shouldn't be doing. And it's been successful, the village initiative. We've not only focused on our youth, but we've also focused on our seniors which we call our community jewels. We cut their grass, we deliver water to them, we check on them every day. We do bingos with our seniors, we do painting, some great workshops with our seniors in their senior living facilities or in their homes. And with our youth, we also do, you know, different activities, such as Hoop It Up, a Friday night event. Friday was a night where we had a lot of issues with our youth. And so we created spaces where they can come and play basketball, play chess, provide them food, and then have all these other community organizations come together with us and partner with us to provide them with some social services if needed, as well.
Chuck Wexler:You know, people listening to this would say, Well, this sounds like soft policing. But the other part of this story is your crime rate.
Gabe Rodriguez:So, you know, we police managers always look at numbers, right? And what we're doing now is affecting the numbers in a positive or negative way. Our crime numbers have continued to decline. We were 50% reduction in violent crime, close to 70% reduction in homicides. But because of the relationships we have, we're also solving the crimes that are still occurring. So in 2020, we had a 100% solve rate on murders. This year, we're at about 61%. That number was 16% before we created these relationships, so working with our community, making these relationships, they're meaningful relationships. These are the grandparents of some of the bad people, right, that we're caring for. So it's changing their outlook on their community.
Chuck Wexler:What can we learn from your story that might help others?
Gabe Rodriguez: So the biggest thing is consistency. You know, you're not going out there and meeting someone one day and never speaking to them again; you have to be consistent. Continue to do these programs; go out there and do outreach and meet people where they are. Have community events and barbecues and movie nights. We just did our 10-year anniversary carnival. It was huge success--thousands of people from the city showed up. Consistency, consistency, to maintain that trust level. You know, when there were riots a couple of years ago because of the George Floyd murder, our community reached out to us and wanted us to participate with them in their protests and their marches. They wanted us to unify as one: our city was not burning down, we were coming together. But that's because of all those deposits we made over the years--you know, the outreach and just the relationship building. I know that there are times where you look back on policy changes that are made, when we see other mistakes being made either here or in other places. So, involving:we've learned to involve the community, when we're looking at, you know, policy changes or creating new policies, those are some of the things we didn't do then.
Chuck Wexler:Do you have any particular group of community members that you check in with, or is it just a matter of random community members? Do you have a formalized community group that you meet with regularly?
Gabe Rodriguez:We have quite a few organizations here in the city that I have, if not myself, I have my commanders or officers make sure they stop into their meetings or have them attend our meetings. I personally like to knock on an individual's door. So it's an individual from an organization or a resident, or business owner, I like to go down and give them one-on-one personal time. Most nights I make sure to call four or five of our community stakeholders before I get to bed. Sometimes some of them keep me on a little longer than I like, where I missed the others. But you know, I also try to lead by example here, and I'm asking my officers to walk on beats while I'm out there every week walking as well. I'm going out every single day to our community because I need to be seen as much as them. And I need to also hear feedback on what we're not doing right. And that's what's important.
Chuck Wexler:Well, this has been a great interview. Let me just say, when we started this interview we talked about you growing up in Camden. And here you are now in 2023, police chief. I bet your family must be pretty proud of you.
Gabe Rodriguez:You know, my mother is still in disbelief. And a lot of my friends and family are; they're very proud. What humbles me and brings me a lot of gratitude is that I can serve as that example for others struggling today about the possibilities for tomorrow.
Rachel Apfelbaum:Camden community member Tameeka Mason is the founder and executive director of the nonprofit One Camden, which helps parents enroll their child in a Camden public school that best fits their needs. Previously, she was an HR specialist for the Camden school district. Here's Chuck's conversation with Tameeka Mason.
Chuck Wexler:Let me ask you, you actually grew up in Camden, and you moved outside of the city at one point and then you came back. Is that fair?
Tameeka Mason:Yes, that is fair. So I was born and raised as a native of the great city of Camden. And I, you know, attended the public schools, and I lived right in the midst of what we would say was kind of like just negative behaviors just all around--you know, right in the midst of a drug market in a part of the city called North Camden. And then once I had my son, I understood exactly what was going on and it just wasn't quality of life for me. And so I had moved out of the city for some time, just to be able to provide my son quality of life and a quality education. I was fortunate to be able to do that. And a lot of the residents, a lot of the community members, they had to, you know, stay and they had to endure what was going on as far as the crime rates, as far as just not feeling safe, as far as education--just wanting more but not able to move out to be able to do that. So I was fortunate enough to do that. But I still remained in Camden. I worked in Camden for over 20 years and just was really dedicated to giving back to the community. And so I always had the goal to come back to live here because I wanted to, you know, work, play, and live in my community, I didn't want to have to commute 30 minutes out, just to you know, sleep and then come back to the city to work. And then also be with family and friends.
Chuck Wexler:What made you come back? What were some of the issues? And what role did the police have in how things have evolved in Camden?
Tameeka Mason:Again, I moved out because it just, it wasn't safe, you know, and the schools weren't up to par--to what was the best fit for me and my family. And I always had the commitment; I just didn't live here. And it took a toll on my family, you know, not living here but being here up until 8 pm or 9 pm and then going home again. Once my son became of a certain age, where I then knew, you know, he could be able to kind of navigate through the community, I took that chance to move back home. And then I also, again, just me being committed, being a leader, I'd seen and heard the vision and I was just committed to being a part of implementing the reform. Feeling safe, that obviously was a part of the feeling or the narration as far as the police, and the police just weren't trusted, police weren't as engaged with the community. I grew up with the mindset that you just don't talk to the police. We didn't see police officers just walking in the community and talking or even collaborating with organizations and just different initiatives throughout the city. And we didn't see that. It was its own entity; it wasn't an entity that we would collaborate with.
Chuck Wexler:When did things start to change? Can you put your finger on a particular moment or individuals where you think, Geez, you know, things are starting to look different?
Tameeka Mason:You know, the vision that things needed to be changed, I would say started around 10 years ago, around 2013. And you pretty much had some reform happening simultaneously. And so you had your educational reform; I mean, we were seeing low graduation rates, dropout rates were high, parents were trying to seek other options outside of the city. And then again, me being right there in the midst of that as an HR manager, I worked for the district, and I was able to interact with our teachers, interact with our principals, administrators, and be able to engage a lot more into the community with the connection through the school system. And at the same time, we were having conversations about public safety. And so simultaneously, we were working on police reform and how the police were interacting with the community. But we also were working on public safety as it pertained to schools. And so that began my interest in the reform. And that led me to say, I want to be a part of the team. You know, I have to give kudos to our previous mayor, Dana Redd, and our previous chief, Thomson. And then now with the torch being handed over to our current mayor, Victor Carstarphen, and our current chief, Rodriguez, they really, really led the way in to us really having a quality of life here in the city of Camden. Really changing that narrative. I'll tell you, being in the city, I really didn't understand what the narrative was. And growing up, you know, in Camden City, it wasn't until I left to go to college and I said I was from Camden City, and everyone just gasped--you're from Camden City? Well, how do you live there? You know. And then one day I was sitting and I was watching TV and a 20/20 special came up. And that's when the 20/20 caption said, America's most dangerous city, Camden, New Jersey. And that, as a young adult, is when I realized I was growing up in chaos, but it was the norm. We just survived. Our parents taught us how to navigate the streets, how to avoid certain blocks, you know; my parents built an indoor porch so that we had a safe place to play. I just didn't really understand that that wasn't normal until I saw that special. That really affected me and I wanted to change the narrative about the city that I grew up in and I love.
Chuck Wexler:So 2013 would have been Chief Thomson. And then Chief Wysocki and then Chief Rodriguez. How were they different than the previous chiefs? What were some of the tangible ways you saw policing change?
Tameeka Mason:You know, I couldn't call out previous chiefs because they just weren't as engaged. We've seen the chiefs, we've seen them walking, you know, even with their team in the streets. So we've seen them at different events. They engaged with the community, they wanted to know what were some of the changes that we wanted to see, you know. It was more interpersonal than it being a system.
Chuck Wexler:So knowing their names, how did they get to know you? The onus is upon you or upon them? How does a police department find credible community members like you?
Tameeka Mason:That's a good question. I think it goes both ways. It's my yearning to learn more about public safety. And I think it's a yearning of the officers, the chief and his staff, to get to know the community and basically collaborate. You had a handful of folks who may not have bought into that vision. And so when you have folks that are yearning like myself, Hey, what's going on? Let's have a meeting, let's go grab coffee. When you have different small meetings and sessions where you're bringing the police officer, because, I mean, let's face it, I can sit on my porch now, right? And so as I'm sitting on my porch, we have officers that are just walking and just engaging in the community. And oftentimes, I'll offer, you know, coffee or water, or if it's the holidays, you know, that's how we are now. And so that's how you begin to bridge those relationships. And again, when you're committed as a citizen to social responsibility, then you're in different roles in the community. You know, I'm a resident, I'm a parent, I'm a community member. And so oftentimes, those roles, they have different responsibilities but they intersect with each other. So you know, just because I'm in education doesn't mean I wouldn't interact with the police force. It all began to come together. You know, public safety isn't just in the streets. It's also in the schools.
Chuck Wexler:As I listened to you, I'm thinking that a big part of the police role here is identifying committed citizens like you. But the whole policing style feels like it changed. It feels like it went from--forgive me--an occupying army to more service oriented.
Tameeka Mason:I mean, you hit it right on the nose; that's pretty much what it was. It was an entity to stop bad things from happening. Now, it's not just an entity to stop bad things from happening. It's also a collaboration of moving the good things forward as well. I can call out even sergeants--like, I have Sergeant Nieves, he comes around and he checks on, you know, the neighbors, and he'll sit and have lunch with us. I tell you, the mindset was just, You just don't mess with the police. And now it's not like that.
Chuck Wexler:I'm gonna ask you this because I think it's important to know. A lot of people think when we talk about this kind of policing, it's soft policing, if you will. But in fact, haven't you seen a crime reduction in Camden? And how much of what the police do and the new community focus can you relate to crime reduction?
Tameeka Mason:Yeah, so, it most definitely has. I mentioned before, 10 years ago, and even before that, I was right in the midst of a drug network, that scene. Lots of people came from all over the region. I think the police, even back in the day, it was, for the lack of a better word. We even had that corruption as well, that kind of built even more crime in the city. I would say now that we've seen tremendous reduction in the crimes. I will say again, that's all based on the collaboration of residents.
Chuck Wexler:What it feels like to me and what this podcast is really about, and you're gonna correct me if I'm wrong, is about trust. You don't provide information or discussion on crime issues unless you trust who you're talking to, right?
Tameeka Mason:Absolutely. And so that is a big factor. I think the police has done a very good job. At least the Camden City Police Department has done a very good job with, again as you mentioned before, identifying ambassadors or leaders that can, you know, speak to the police department in their initiatives or even folks that can bridge the police with different community organizations. Like for example, I sit on the board; I have the opportunity, you know, just being an engaged citizen and committee member, to be a leader and sit on different boards. And so I sit on the Salvation Army Kroc Center board. And we have an open gym initiative that we've collaborated with the police to be able to offer kids a place to pretty much go and have a safe place to play on Fridays. And I think we're getting about 200 kids now. So these are the efforts that we're seeing that the police isn't just coming in talking about, Don't do drugs, or don't commit a crime. They're actually engaged; we're actually talking about what are the issues. Youth need somewhere to go, right? And so the police is saying, Hey, we're going to jump in, and we're going to provide this service--gonna play basketball, we're going to have games, we're going to provide haircuts, and you guys provide the space. And this begins to build that trust; it begins to build the relationships. Relationships are very, very important when it comes to collaboration, when it comes to development of the community, when it comes to trust in the police.
Chuck Wexler:Two questions. One is sustainability. You know, you started with Chief Thomson, and then you had Chief Wysocki, and then you have Chief Rodriguez. In a lot of police departments, someone could come in and change things and things would be better; then someone else comes in and reverses them. Why do you think that there seems to be some continuity over 10 years?
Tameeka Mason: Oh, that's a great question. I would say first, call out that Chief Wysocki and Chief Thomson have both done incredible jobs, but to place a native, someone who has lived and seen, you know, the negative behaviors and seen the progression and to be a part of that--Chief Rodriguez is that person. He is the key to the success of what our previous chiefs have, you know, begun because he experienced it. He was also a part of the police department. When it went through its reform, he came back, he was committed. And he worked his way all the way up, where he's able to continue to lead the efforts in building that trust between the community and the police. He's a native, you know, and we talked about, we were reminiscing at our last event, and we were talking about how things have really changed. North Camden was once called like a gated community, and not gated community as in, you know, you're being buzzed in:gated community because everyone had gates around their homes for protection. And we were just reminiscing on how far we've come from that. Folks are taking down their gates. You know, they hit it right on the nose, recruiting and promoting Chief Rodriguez into that role to really continue the efforts and really continue the implementation of that vision.
Chuck Wexler:Let me ask you one final question, which is, you know, there's a lot of angst across the country nationally about policing. And people are always looking for examples of what works. How do you think the lessons in Camden can somehow be replicated across the country?
Tameeka Mason:I just think as far as us being a model, I think relationships and collaboration. Collaboration is most certainly important in being able to bridge the community with the police. And it's not just collaboration with the residents. It's collaborations with other community organizations, other initiatives. It's really sitting down and looking at what's going wrong and how do we fix it. And that's going to happen community by community in order to change this national narrative of the police against the community. I think Camden has done a phenomenal job, a phenomenal job with moving us forward and really bridging that gap.
Chuck Wexler:Thank you for joining us for this series. We've heard from police leaders and members of the community about why building public trust in police is so important. We've learned how some police departments have improved public safety by strengthening their relationship with the community they serve. I hope you will consider adapting these strategies to help your own community. Thank you.
Dustin Waters:Thanks for listening to this episode of PERFcast, the official podcast of the Police Executive Research Forum. Please be sure to subscribe on your podcast platform of choice and stay tuned for upcoming episodes. For more information on PERF visit www.policeforum.org or follow us on Twitter @policeforum. Thanks again for listening. This podcast series was made possible thanks to the generous support of the Motorola Solutions Foundation.